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Date: March 09, 2010 at 11:46:52
From: DQSHISTORIAN, [ip68-100-85-52.dc.dc.cox.net]
Subject: Variations in duster fenders and numbering - Question |
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I am trying to understand why some dusters had squared front and rear fenders and others had an angle to them?
I think the square ones are older models since the 1952 TM for the T-141, the trial version of the M42, shows the fenders as square. The 1957 TM for the M-42 shows the fenders with the angle to them.
Anyone know for sure?
I do know that the dusters were manufactured by several companies. That could also a derermining factor, but I have no way of confirming it.
Then there is the question of the two versions of numbering a duster. One version contains the number 12 followed by an alpha character followed by three numbers. Like 12 A 123. I have also seen numbers with less than three characters after the alpha character.
The second numbering scheme is always eight numbers long and they all start with 40228xxx.
I am trying to cross reference photos in the archive to one type fender or another to the two types of numbering systems. However there does not appear to be an absolute correlation.
I looked at the vehicle identification plates I have and I do not see anything that might correlate to the track numbers of either system painted on the dusters.
Now I am wondering if it could be related to the National Guard origins of the tracks? Possibly New Mexico and Florida NG had different numbering systems and these numbers transferred to correspond with the duster's maintenance records?
So does anyone know why some dusters as labeled as 12Axxx and others use 40228xxx?
Could there be something in the TOE for the battalions that explains it?
ThHere could also be something I have not considered.
All input appreciated.
Paul K Historian
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Date: March 12, 2010 at 06:57:59
From: DQSHISTORIAN, [ip68-100-85-52.dc.dc.cox.net]
Subject: How about the 4th Armored Division '65-66 |
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Do any of the original Duster Battalion officers or trainees remember if they were affiliated/designated as under the command of the 4th Armored Division while at Ft. Bliss?
I have two photos of dusters that seem to show:
4A5ADA2 and 4A4ADA60 markings.
Could this have been the command markings on the dusters used out at McGregor Range and Oro Grande?
Also can anyone confirm that Dusters that were being cleaned after the Battalions closed down in 1971 actally made it back to the States to either Ft. Bliss or one of the National Guard Units?
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Date: March 16, 2010 at 11:30:37
From: glen h. bode, [csi337018.scd.anl.gov]
Subject: Re: How about the 4th Armored Division '65-66 |
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each time i read another of these my mind seems to tell me my memory is fading worse than i remember.
i do remember the bumper numbers designating the unit of assignment and other designations. in the case you cite, the initial 4A would have indicated 5/2 and 4/60 were organic to the division. this in a manner similar to the 4/60 being assigned/organic to 1st field force vietnam (IFFV) or IFFV artillery (IFFVA).
it would then appear 4th armored division was responsible/assigned to range operations at mc gregor/oro grande. the 5ada2 and 4ada60 designations are interesting as the "ada" designation was not official 'til the early 70s. thus my recolection of the use of the "ad" designation mentioned in one of my earlier responses. with respect to 4/60, i also recall the acronym awsp (automatic weapon, self propelled) being utilized within the marking scheme. otherwise my memory is unclear - 4AD(AWSP)60 or something of the like.
bode hhb 4/60, 1970
Moderated By: pkopsick@yahoo.com
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Date: March 10, 2010 at 08:56:54
From: DQSHISTORIAN, [ip68-100-85-52.dc.dc.cox.net]
Subject: Re: Variations in duster fenders and numbering - Question |
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Paul,
Perhaps I can be of some assistance here.
The 40228xxx refers to the registration number as assigned to the vehicle by the Army. 40 is the designator for tracked anti-aircraft vehicle. I'll have to look it up in the manual, but that is what I remember.
The 12 A 123 would be the unit number or divisional markings. Even though they were National Guard, they would have been pretty standard. I will have to look it up when I find my stuff to let you know for sure.
As for the angled vs flat fenders, the straight fenders were the original design. During production, a change was made to the fenders. See Fred Crimson's book on tracked vehicles.
Hope this helps.
Robert Ratliff
www.historyfanatics.net
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Date: March 10, 2010 at 08:49:42
From: glen h. bode, [csi337018.scd.anl.gov]
Subject: Re: Variations in duster fenders and numbering - Question |
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for sure? after all these years i don't even know what name i was using back then. you seem to have gotten yourself wrapped up in the army numbers game.
first question would be if you're sure you're looking at dusters in the nam? i've actually seen dusters as far away as greece. the point being regardless of where they came from, once they were in country under our control (arvn have any dusters?) they would have been marked uniformly. otherwise, the only explination i can come up with is the 12xxxx sounds pretty close to the "usa number" designation. as for the specific unit vehicle number, it could be a single digit designation. as in, the bn co's jeep was numbered h-5 (as i recall). the numerical prefix (i.e., 12) in your example throws me if it were actually a bumper/vehicle number. the 40228xxx leaves me at a complete loss also (unless it is actually the usa number).
making my brain work upon these numbers has made me question the answers i gave to marking questions earlier.
i can state that the mtoe would be no help. section 3 would be the listing of the equipment authorized by line item number (lin) and quantity. actual vehicle information would be found in the battalion property book and motor pool records.
bode hhb 4/60, 1970
Moderated By: pkopsick@yahoo.com
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Date: March 22, 2010 at 16:30:42
From: George Nagelschmidt, [rrcs-208-125-219-238.nys.biz.rr.com]
Subject: Re: Variations in duster fenders and numbering - Question |
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Glen; Where would you guess our old ' Battalion Property Books ' would be today (assuming they came back to CONUS after the war)...' The Center of Military History ' in Wash., D.C. or maybe Suitland Maryland's achives...or College Park Achives? I doubt they would have gone to ADA Center at Fort Bliss. Wouldn't it be a treasure to get a copy of it ?!
Moderated By: pkopsick@yahoo.com
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Date: March 10, 2010 at 08:48:38
From: George Nagelschmidt, [rrcs-208-125-219-238.nys.biz.rr.com]
Subject: Re: Variations in duster fenders and numbering - Question |
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Paul; What's true of the M42 Duster's fenders is probably also true of the (ARVN) M41 Bulldog's fenders which also vary...and likely at some point around halfway through their overall production runs, because I've seen just about half of them each way. I read somewhere that the angle was added after significant field use where and when the squared ones got bent up alot from hitting heavy brush and small trees. They all seem to be consistent in that when angled ones are on the front they're also on the back ones. I know that ours C/1-44 1966/7 where mixed both at Oro Grande and in Vietnam...but I've heard that the ones we used in training stayed in New Mexico while refurbished (like new) ones from Depot were the ones that arrived in Vietnam??? Maybe some of the Maintainance guys that put them on the railcars for Beaumont Texas have info on this part??? These same guys must have some insight on the markings too. Seems like the guys in Battalion Headquarters would be able to add something here...because I know that the 5/2 used a numbering system (on the lower front and back) different from 1/44 & 4/60...jump in guys! Another question is ; did any of the Battalions change from the original numbering system that was established in 1966/7 over to other systems as time and opinions weighed in? I have assumed that all of the M42s were upgraded to the M42A1 eventually...but who knows maybe the recession in 1958 forced budget cuts that never completed this work, although they're production runs were allegedly completed in 1957.
Moderated By: pkopsick@yahoo.com
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Date: March 11, 2010 at 04:07:12
From: Ron Almon, [tx-71-2-182-6.dhcp.embarqhsd.net]
Subject: Re: Variations in duster fenders and numbering - Question |
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B 4/60 was numbered: Unit number lower left, front and back. Vehicle number lower right, front and back. That is if you are standing on the ground looking at the vehicle. Vehicle numbers were preceded by a letter representing the Btry. ie. B-111, A-111, etc.. Numbers also indicated Platoon, Section, and Track number of that Section. I don't know of any Sections that had more than 2 Dusters so the last numbers would either be a 1 or a 2. Please correct my if I'm wrong. I haven't thought about this in 40 years.
Ron Almon
B 4/60
Ron Almon
B 4/60
Moderated By: pkopsick@yahoo.com
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Date: March 11, 2010 at 14:15:54
From: George Nagelschmidt, [rrcs-208-125-219-238.nys.biz.rr.com]
Subject: Re: Variations in duster fenders and numbering - Question |
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Ron; Your Duster's numbering were identical to 1/44's in 1967. The first number (reading right-to-left) was either 1 or 2 (platoon) ; second number was either 1,2,3 or 4 (section) and third number was either 1 or 2 (squad or track). Headquarters of course had trucks but no Dusters at all. I've heard that in some temporary replacement cases Dusters with other numbers were used while awaiting repairs on their regular Duster...such as "C-140"...guessing it could have been called a loner Duster? Initially I believe each Battalion started out with two spare Dusters that didn't have assigned crews , and we left for Vietnam with 66 each.
Moderated By: pkopsick@yahoo.com
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Date: March 12, 2010 at 06:31:44
From: George Nagelschmidt, [rrcs-208-125-219-238.nys.biz.rr.com]
Subject: Re: Variations in duster fenders and numbering - Question |
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Ron; Oops...In the previous post my mind confused my fingers I think...I was trying to say "(reading left-to-right)"...sorry about that! PS; How many remember that 8-inch round, golden-yellow, thing usually painted onto the center-front Duster's door only, that had I think the number '23' or '25' inside of it? I believe it was information that a sentry at a (floating) bridge was supposed to read, and then calculate quickly to determine how much space he should provide between vehicles in a convoy etc. so the bridge and vehicles weren't sunk! We crossed two of these type bridges in the lowlands north of Hue, when our Battalion first got in-country. Before that, we were delayed for two days at Phu Bai waiting for the Engineers to put one of them back in place, because the VC cut one end of it free and it had floated downstream.
Moderated By: pkopsick@yahoo.com
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Date: April 10, 2010 at 16:21:16
From: Jose, [cpe-173-172-194-155.elp.res.rr.com]
Subject: Re: Variations in duster fenders and numbering - Question |
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There was not 4 Armored Div in 1960's at Bliss. What that marking represent is 4th Army. Bliss was under 4th army HQs then. After Nam, Bliss was under TRADOC HQs.
Moderated By: pkopsick@yahoo.com
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